[Danielle Balocca]: Hey listeners, this is Danielle. And Shelley. Shelley is a radical Dravidian and racial equity activist.
[Chelli Keshavan]: And Danielle is a community mobilizer and changemaker. And this is the Medford Bites podcast. Every two weeks, we chew on the issues facing Medford and deliver bites of information about the city by lifting the expertise of our guests.
[Danielle Balocca]: Join us in discussion about what you hope for the future of Medford. And as always, tell us where you like to eat. All right, thank you all so much for joining me today. If you don't mind just starting by introducing yourselves with your name, pronouns, and just a bit about who you are.
[Steve Schnapp]: I'll start. My name is Steve Schnapp. I live in Medford Square, near Medford Square. I live with my lifelong partner. I'm retired. originally from the Bronx, New York. I use he, him as my pronouns. And I'll say a little bit about myself so folks might know where I'm coming from. I was born into a secular Jewish family in the Bronx, working class. My parents were, we now call progressives. And my mom was instrumental in giving me a Hebrew name when I was born. I was born in 1946, just after World War II ended, and she thought it important that I have the Hebrew name Shalom. My name is Steve, Steven, but Shalom was my Hebrew name because it means peace. And she really thought that was important. I'll say more about that as this conversation continues.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thanks, Steve.
[Munir Jirmanus]: Should I go next? OK. My name is Munir Germanus. He, him pronouns. I'll talk a little bit about my background. I have been an elder at the Clarendon Hill Presbyterian Church in Sarnoval, where I served on this ruling session for approximately 30 years, although now I'm not an active member anymore of the church for many years. I was convinced to become a born-again Christian in my youth. growing up in Lebanon, but now occasionally refer to myself as a born-again pagan, especially after reading the book The Pagan Christ by Tom Harper. I was also a member of the Medford Human Rights Commission and served as chair for a few years, and I'm currently a board member of the Center for Arabic Culture. I'm also a member of the Mass Peace Action, Jewish Voice for Peace, and two local Medford groups, Safe Medford, and Medford People Power. I was born in Jerusalem, Palestine in 1944, prior to the creation of the state of Israel. By training, I'm a physicist with a PhD in physics from Duft University, and I'm a naturalized US citizen who's been living in Medford for the past 40 years. I'll talk later more about the situation, the country where I was born, and the region. Thank you.
[Barry Ingber]: Thank you. And I am Barry Ingber. I live in North Medford. I'm he. I identify as a long-term peace and social justice activist, and this connects to my identification as a Jew, which is a group with a very long history of suffering, bigotry, and violence. I'm also a practicing Jew, and I belong to a Jewish congregation, and I practice many of the traditional religious rituals. I'm also a member of Safe Medford, Medford People Power, Jewish Voice for Peace, and I'll leave it there. for now.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you all. And so today, I think we're hoping to have a little bit of a dialogue about the war in Gaza and its repercussions in Medford. Before we get into that, I wonder, you know, you all mentioned a little bit about your identities, if there's any part of your identity that you're sort of hoping to elevate for for today's conversation.
[Steve Schnapp]: Well, I mentioned my secular Jewish upbringing. That certainly has influenced me dramatically. I spent my life as a community organizer, community educator. My mom used the Hebrew term tzedek, justice. telling me that it was one of the few words repeated in the Bible, the five books of Moses, because it was so important, that notion. I identify as a Jew. I also identify as a New Yorker, a Bronxite. I identify as a husband, a grandfather, a father. and as an activist now that I'm retired. And that all contributes to who I am, I think. So it's intersectional in a way, my identities.
[Munir Jirmanus]: I will say that I identify as both a Lebanese and Palestinian American person, because most of my life, when I was younger, until I graduated from college, I spent in Lebanon. And since then, I've been mostly living in the US. So I was born into a Christian family, but participated in church activities. I was a younger person, and when I came, when I immigrated into this country, or when I first came here to graduate school, I was not part of any church activities. As a matter of fact, when the graduate student advisor at Tufts asked me about my religious background, used the term evangelical, that was a literal translation from Arabic, not knowing what evangelical meant. And her reaction was, oh, and I didn't quite understand it at that time. But now I am fully aware of what it implies and whatnot. But I'll say more about that later.
[Barry Ingber]: I'll just throw in that Steve's reference to Tzedek in the Tanakh, in the five books of Moses, is that the full phrase is Tzedek, Tzedek tirdof, justice, justice shall you pursue. And the name of my congregation is Dorshed Tzedek, Pursuers of Justice.
[Danielle Balocca]: Well, thank you all for that. And it's clear that you have been part of a social justice-focused, activist-focused community and communities for a long time. And I think we're going to talk more about what's happening today in Gaza. But I'm wondering if you might say just a word or two about what's kept you in this. It sounds like it's been a long time, a lot of hard work that you've put into it. What keeps you going?
[Barry Ingber]: I'll start this time. I want to say that unlike many Jews that I know, I have no connection to Israel. I don't speak Hebrew. I don't speak Arabic. I identify more with the Pale of Settlement in Eastern Europe. That's where my ancestors came from, far further back than I'm able to trace. I have no particular interest in the Middle East. I'm a lot more interested in, have historically been more active in issues in Latin America, which I speak some Spanish and I've been there in various countries in Latin America and know more about the history there. But a lot of what happens in Israel and Palestine is done in my name as a Jew. And it's funded with U.S. resources. And as an American Jew, I don't feel like I have a choice but to be active in this issue. I just have to be.
[Munir Jirmanus]: I can go next, again, add a few more words. As I said, I've been active in Palestine-Israel issues for probably around 40 years. It's been many times a frustrating experience. And as I mentioned, I don't identify as a Palestinian or a Lebanese, and even though I grew up in that region, but I consider those labels, so to speak, to be artificial. because it is something that the colonial powers of the UK and France, who pretty much divided the region as they felt they wanted to, just to control the people, and they created many times artificial borders between these places. And so even though historically there's been Palestine, historically there was Mount Lebanon, Historically, there's been Syria, but most of that region was actually called Greater Syria for many years. But I keep on going because I feel like I don't have a choice.
[Steve Schnapp]: That's a good question. I think there are two things that keep me going. They keep me going. I think you framed it right. I think the three of us have been at it for a long time. I am luckier than Munir. I was, as I mentioned, I grew up in a very supportive family that encouraged me to be progressive and to be active. And I grew up at a time when there were large movements happening. The civil rights movement was big. And then I was in college when the Vietnam War grew dramatically and the draft began. I gave up my deferment, my student deferment, and was drafted. I had been actually doing some draft counseling. I knew the ins and outs, how to make a decision whether to go into the army and try and organize. I was against the war. Or go to Canada or something like that. And I applied for a conscientious objector status. That's a delaying tactic. But I was able, through some hard work and support of a lot of folks, actually get that status. I was denied once, then they approved it. And I did two years of alternate duty in a children's hospital. You know, Vietnam was an atrocious war that lasted for many, many years. And it convinced me of that simple slogan that war is not the answer. That it doesn't achieve many objectives other than making a very, very few people very, very wealthy and powerful. Most of the victims in war are civilian, one way or another. They pay the price, women and children pay the price. It's sad and difficult to 50 years, 60 years later, at a time in my life when I'm retired to see this nation's, my nation's resources being poured into conflicts around the world and the latest one in Gaza that has the greatest impact on civilians. So it's hard to keep going, and that's a really good question. So the two things that keep me going are my children and grandchildren. I have three grandchildren. This is a world that they're going to have to live in. I'll be gone. and they'll live here. And it's awful to think that that world will be one where war and violence is the accepted response to difficulties, to problems, first response often, and massive violence in this case. The other thing that keeps me going is folks like yourself, young people, who didn't have the kind of background necessarily that I did. Easy to become involved in stuff and well-supported when I got arrested and all sorts of things like that. But I see many young folks who are doing things like establishing podcasts and encouraging dialogue and doing many, many, many things that I guess I did or tried to do when I was that age. So knowing that there is a cohort of people who also think a better world is possible, that keeps me going.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you, guys. And so I think we are going to talk a little bit of a summary of what's going on. Before we do that, I know, Munir, I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about what it was like to live in this region when you were growing up.
[Munir Jirmanus]: OK, I'll do that. I'll give a little historical background as well, as brief as possible. I think it's important to remember that Muslims, Christians, Jews, Druze, and other religious minorities lived in harmony in what is known as the Middle East and in Palestine for many centuries prior to the British and French colonization of that region, except when instigated by the colonizing powers in the typical divide and conquer fashion. The situation in Palestine started to change dramatically near the beginning of the 20th century. mainly as a result of the discrimination against Jewish citizens in various countries in Europe, which eventually led to the horrific events of the Holocaust and the subsequent migration of European or some European Jews to Palestine, which at that time was a British colony. This ended in the forced expulsion of around 750,000 indigenous Palestinians when the British mandate ended and the state of Israel was created in 1948. I, myself, and my family are survivors of this ethnic cleansing of most of the indigenous Palestinian population because we were not of the right ethnicity. My family was Christian. Apparently, when my ancestors converted to Christianity, We lost our rights to our home and land according to Israeli law. I still have a copy of the land where my father built our house, along with photos of the house in West Jerusalem that is occupied by a Jewish guy, a Jewish Israeli, I should say, that as this was obtained by a Jewish friend of ours from the Israeli Registry of Deeds a few years ago. Now, other historical landmarks in this conflict, and I'll just be very brief here, I'll touch upon the dates, was the 1967 war that ended with Israel occupying all of historic Palestine, because initially when Israel was created in 1948, it was created on a significant portion of Palestine, but not all of it. So the 67 war expanded Israeli control into the West Bank and into East Jerusalem that previously had been under Jordanian control. Israel also occupied the Syrian Golan Heights as well as the Gaza Strip that was under Egyptian rule. Israel eventually withdrew from Gaza in 2005 At least they withdrew their forces and whatever settlements were there. Settlements is a pretty mild name for what actually happens. These are really like colonial enclaves. But Israel maintained a total land, air, and sea blockade of Gaza since that time, and Gaza has been appropriately referred to as an open-air prison, because nothing goes in and out unless Israel says so. Most of the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip are inhabited by Palestinians who are pushed out of historic Palestine, so they are refugees from their own land. And then after 1967, armed Israeli settlers started to expand into the West Bank, protected by the Israeli armed forces, and now they control the vast majority of the West Bank. So the West Bank and Gaza were under the limited rule of the Palestine Authority, but the residents of Gaza chose Hamas to be their elected leaders in 2007. If you're interested in just one book that speaks very well to this conflict, it's by an Israeli historian, Ilan Pape. It's called The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. If you don't want to read a book, you can listen to a recent interview with Professor Pape on Democracy Now. It's titled Israeli Historian, Ilan Pape on Gaza War, Hostages, and the Context Behind the Current Violence. So that pretty much sums up my historical background, so to speak.
[Chelli Keshavan]: Thank you, Muneer. I think while you're speaking, I'm both appreciating the capacity for a multi-ethnic secular nation and also thinking about our own hope around maybe just standing in solidarity against oppression of all kinds. I'm thinking about Steve's words on Vietnam and some sort of high-level parallels. But maybe, Steve, if I could lean on you to share A summary, brief summary, that's probably an extremely difficult question to ask, but about what's happening in this moment?
[Steve Schnapp]: Sure. I'll tell you what I know. I know that the Gaza Health Ministry is reporting that deaths are over 18,000 in Gaza. Over 18,000 people have been killed since October 7th. more than 7,000 children. Very high percentage of Gazans are young, under the age of 19. These are the people who are suffering. I saw a brief clip a couple of days ago on a news station, an interview with an Israeli tank commander who was in South Gaza. and who said that he was in his tank and they were in their operation. Just pause for a minute. He was saying that their goal is to knock down every building in the particular city they were in. That was their objective. That's what the tanks were there for. according to reliable sources, 80 percent of the buildings in Gaza have been destroyed or severely hampered. Eighty percent. You have a million and a half people who are homeless. I think that that's a correct number. This is a humanitarian emergency of great proportions. These are incredible numbers. The Gaza Strip, the area where people have been forced into, is about the size of Delaware. That's how small it is. And more ordinance has been dropped on them. The number I looked it up is 25,000 tons of bombs, half of which are the so-called dumb bombs. I'm not sure there is really a smart bomb. It doesn't distinguish between civilians and armed soldiers or combatants. the so-called smart bombs. They can just be a little bit better targeted. And what I also know about the current situation is the vast majority of the weapons that the Israeli Defense Forces are using are made in America. Particularly their so-called smart bombs all come from the United States. It is us who are providing this ordinance. here. I know that, and I think most people know, that 1,200 Israelis were killed approximately on October 7th in a horrendous attack by Hamas. And as I mentioned, over 18,000 Palestinians, Gazans have died, and quite a number in the settlements. Not a high number like that, but there are increasing numbers of Palestinians in the settlements who are being targeted. This is a situation that when put in context of what has been happening, as Munir described, how the Israelis control Gaza, refusing to allow supplies. This is before October 7th. Refusing to allow adequate medical supplies and other kinds of humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. The vast numbers of people were unemployed. think 60% is the number I saw, unemployment in Gaza before this present conflict began. So people were hurting. It was a humanitarian crisis happening before this bombing, and now, since the devastation is just hard to describe. A resource that folks may want to look at, there was a statement issued by Oxfam America on, I believe it was December 2nd. It was written by Abby Maxman. who's the CEO, also a Winchester resident. It's a very powerful statement, brief, and to the point, looking at this crisis from a humanitarian point of view. This is a nonpartisan organization. They're not taking sides, except on part of people who are being destroyed. And that's the mission of their organization. And she writes as a Jew and as a lifelong humanitarian and the head of Oxfam. And I think, and she's describing what she sees from that perspective and calling for a ceasefire and then paying attention to the needs of the civilians in that area. Well worth reading, very moving.
[Chelli Keshavan]: Absolutely. I think another piece that's on my mind in terms of this moment is sort of precedent setting and what kind of a complete disregard for international law. This moment might inform moving forward or sort of lack thereof, maybe.
[Steve Schnapp]: Yeah, I should add, your words just reminded me of one point I think people should be aware of. There was a recent Security Council discussion at the United Nations of this issue, where the members wanted to call for a ceasefire, a humanitarian ceasefire, and it was vetoed by the US. And Munir might know, or maybe Barry might know, the number of resolutions trying to address the asymmetrical situation in that area for, I don't know, 40 or 50 years with resolutions that in the General Assembly are approved by vast majorities, and in the Security Council, always vetoed by the United States. And I'm embarrassed as a member of this country to know that my government has been instrumental in committing the kinds of support necessary to make this horrific, it's not a conclusion, but outcome of past policies. I don't see how it could get much worse than it is right now.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you, Steve. I think, too, you know, I think, Barry, in your introduction, you talked about just this, you know, the Jewish people and this historic oppression of Jews. And I think one word that we're hearing a lot around what's happening in Gaza is, and the reactions to it, is antisemitism. And I wonder if, like, you could share how that's, you know, being brought up in this context.
[Barry Ingber]: Yeah, we sure are hearing that a lot in our communities and especially around what's happening on university campuses. I think it's a little bit telling that we're not hearing a whole lot in the mainstream media about Islamophobia or anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian hate, even though there's actually been more violence against those groups in recent weeks than there have been against Jews, but there's probably been more rhetoric against Jews. Antisemitism is real in this country. I think it was almost two years ago, I was on a podcast here and talking about that specifically. It's real, it's endemic, it exists implicitly as well as explicitly just like racism does. It's baked into our culture. And as real as it is, it doesn't mean that every accusation of antisemitism is necessarily valid. In fact, I think what's happening now is where seeing antisemitism used as a deflection away from looking at the horrors that are being inflicted on Gaza by Israel and the United States. So the reality of antisemitism is being weaponized in support of Israel and in support of this war and against criticism of Israel and the war. And it leads to absurdities like the recent House of Representatives hearing on anti-Semitism on college campuses where you have a group of anti-Semitic Christian nationalist Republicans all of a sudden, defending the rights of Jews. You know, so you have Elise Stefanik, who is a proponent of replacement theory, leading the hearing. And you have, you know, with the support of Marjorie Taylor Greene, who blamed the fires in the Pacific Northwest a couple of years ago, not on climate change, but on Jewish space lasers. You know, these are the people who are standing up and calling out anti-Semitism on university campuses. What's happening is language is being abused all over the place. Intifada, which just means uprising, can be peaceful. The Arab Spring was an intifada. you know, but it's being reinterpreted by Elise Stefanik to mean genocide of Jews. That was what she accused the university presidents of not standing up to the use of the word intifada. You see river to the sea, which is an ambiguous term. By some people, it means getting rid of the Jews from the river to the sea. But from the beginning, what it meant was everybody should be free from the river to the sea. It was all inclusive. Meanwhile, Likud, the founding member, the founding document of Likud, which is the ruling party in Israel, calls for Israeli Jewish sovereignty from the river to the sea. That's okay. You know, so there's all of this abusive language, but especially what I'm seeing is that criticism of Israel and Israeli policies and anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are all equated, all conflated as if they're the same thing, and they are all different things. There are many Zionists who are critical of the Israeli government and Israeli policies, and even of the war. There are many Jews, including rabbis, who are anti-Zionist, and anti-Zionist itself can be I mean, what a Zionist means, there's many, many different types of Zionism and definitions of Zionism. So that could take a whole podcast to kind of parse out. But the point being that I am a Jew, I work with rabbis on this, and I consider myself anti-Zionist, and so do many rabbis. We are not anti-Semites. It's really dangerous for Jews to claim that Jewish identity is bound up with the Israeli state, because what that means, if that's true, If all Jews, in order to really be a Jew, have to support Israel, and if Israel is acting immorally, as it is right now, that means that we all, all of us Jews, are legitimate targets. That's wrong. And it's really, really a dangerous position to take. Jews are not all responsible for what's going on in Gaza, just as Palestinians are not responsible for the attacks of Hamas in southern Israel. And we need to be recognizing everyone's humanity in this conflict and outside of this conflict. I want to say, though, that some of my thinking is changing on this. Until a couple of weeks ago, I basically regarded all of the accusations of antisemitism as being deliberate lies and acts of demagoguery. And I'm now just kind of seeing, talking, especially with older Jews, Jews of my generation and Steve's who were born soon after the Holocaust and many of whom have attachments to Israel. I'm just seeing that these expressions are, while wrong, they're sincere expressions of fear coming out of trauma. So I just want to recognize that as well, that we just need to be really careful with each other. And I have seen some callousness among my colleagues in support of Palestinian rights towards the attacks by Hamas, regarding the attacks by Hamas. And that callousness is not okay. You know, attacks on civilians is not okay. Killing children is not okay. Rape is not okay. Bombing hospitals is not okay. None of this is okay. We need to support human rights for everybody, and we need to support peace for everybody.
[Chelli Keshavan]: I think that's a perfect segue in the name of supporting peace for everybody. Do folks have thoughts on what we here in Medford, our community of Medfordites, can be doing, reading, thinking about, sharing? What are some tangible items that we can be pursuing in community?
[Munir Jirmanus]: So I'll just mention a few things. As I mentioned earlier, I have been active in Palestine-Israel advocacy for most of my adult life. And I'm obviously very concerned about the current military conflict in Gaza and Israel. Although I don't have any relatives living now in Israel or Palestine, several members of my son-in-law's extended family were killed by an Israeli airstrike on a historic church in southern Gaza, where they were sheltering away from their home in the northern section of Gaza. This trip, as I mentioned, as somebody had mentioned before, it's like about twice the size of Washington, D.C. Now, I'm currently working with several groups on a resolution that would immediately stop the bombing, release all hostages and prisoners, and end the total air, land, and sea blockade on Gaza that prevents food, water, and essential materials from reaching the civilian population of Gaza, and prevents starvation, which is actually starting to happen, disease, and homelessness for millions of innocent Palestinians who are trapped there. There, I am working with some other folks on, you know, we've been, almost many of us, I know Steve and Mary and certainly members of my family, have been on almost daily calls to our politicians, like our local representative, Clark, and who, I might add, knows very well the history and the background of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but her, I think, love of power and the fact that she's scared that AIPAC might start attacking her, She just refuses to issue any half-decent statement about the conflict. We're also doing some work, doing the same thing of advocacy for our two senators. And again, I think Elizabeth Warren has been a little more forthcoming in trying to support the peace initiative. Senator Markey, as he's done for most of his career, either in the House of Representatives and in the Senate, again, refuses to budge. Even though I've been with many groups over the years to his offices, he just, again, is a, you know, to my way of thinking, under total control of what might call the Israel lobby and afraid to speak out for peace. Other efforts now we're trying to I mean, there are several human rights commissions in the greater Boston area that have issued statements asking for the end of the bombing and for condemning the violence on both sides. We're trying to get Medford to do so, so far unsuccessfully, but we're gonna keep at it.
[Barry Ingber]: I guess I can add some resources if people want to learn more, and maybe you all can post it on the website once this goes live. A person who I really enjoy reading in general, he writes and speaks especially on Israel and Palestine, but also on on both domestic and international issues is Peter Beinart. He has a weekly Substack newsletter. He's a commentator on MSNBC, his writing appears in various places. And he's both a brilliant and a wonderful human being. There's a recent podcast from Naomi Klein that was also brilliant and very helpful. I'd recommend that anybody who has time take a look at that. Ali Abou Ahwad is the head of a group called Taghir, which is a a Palestinian group committed to nonviolence and a just resolution of the situation. also appears in webinars and speaking tours, as does Jonathan Kuttab, an internationally renowned human rights lawyer. He is a Christian Palestinian. He lives in California. He works with a group called Foundation for Middle East Peace, which is affiliated with Nonviolence International. These are groups that are worth looking at. two groups and there's more working in Palestine, Israel to try to achieve peace and who are struggling through this time because it's so fraught there, are the groups standing together and combatants for peace. And And a couple of news sources to look at are Jewish Currents, one of the chief editors there is Peter Beinart and 972mag.com.
[Steve Schnapp]: The only thing I would add will probably be too late for the podcast, but I think it's important for people to know that Medford's Interfaith Group is hosting a prayer and conversation session It will include meditation and time to grieve and things of that nature on Tuesday, December 19th, 7 p.m. I imagine it will be recorded. I don't know for sure. it would be nice to know the outcomes of that. Folks should check out social media and other sources to find out how that went and if there'll be follow-ups to that. But at least it's an attempt by several faith communities in Medford to begin talking about this. I encourage that.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you all. And I think we started this conversation framing it as a dialogue about what's happening in Gaza. And I think that there was a bit of alignment in the conversation and just to sort of stress the importance of a continued dialogue, even across like belief systems and dialogue when maybe there isn't agreement around the topic. But thank you all so much for your time today. It was, I really enjoyed our dialogue together. And thank you, Shelly, for your thoughtful questions.
[Chelli Keshavan]: Hey, thank you, everybody. I really appreciate this.
[Barry Ingber]: Thank you both for organizing this. Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much. And thank you for inviting us.
[Steve Schnapp]: Yeah, same for me. I really appreciate the work you do.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. The Medford Bites podcast is produced and moderated by Danielle Balacca and Shelly Keshaman. Music is made by Hendrik Giedonis. We'd love to hear what you think about the podcast. You can reach out to us by email at medfordpod at gmail.com, or you can rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts. Thanks so much for listening. Guys, what's the name of the podcast? Never Bites. Never Bites. Good job.